You would have thought that in 2012 and after the 2010 Equality Act has been in operation for 18 months it should be difficult for any organisation to discriminate against anyone based on their religious beliefs. But for a charity benefiting from royal patronage and actually aimed at children it would be unthinkable - after all didn't Jesus (allegedly) say "suffer the children".
However this bizarre state of affairs is alive and well within one of the longest standing and richest charities in the UK - The Scouts Association.
Yes The Scouts - of camping canoeing, knot tying and singalong fame, actively and proudly ban any atheist from joining and claim an exemption from the equality act exists to allow them to single out atheists as the only group barred from joining.
You wouldn't imagine this could happen. After all the current (as of April 2012) home page of their website proudly shows off the new muslim friendly uniform to allow girls to join and they have a wide variety of oaths designed to cover virtually any religion you can name but no secular one. And it was this lack that prompted me to contact them.
Our daughter is now old enough to join the scouts and we felt it might be an interesting activity for her - something to bring out the adventurous side and widen her horizons. She has a wide circle of friends and, as is typical in this tolerant and diverse country we live in, they are of many faiths. At the last count we can include a couple of devout catholics, three jews, some creationist christians, four muslims (some from mixed faith households) and any number for whom the question of religion has never arisen. All these children get along great with only a couple of dinosaur toys causing a little consternation at one point!
Based on our wonderful diversity I didn't think there would be any problem with the scouts so dropped them a little email asking if there was a secular version of the oath which my daughter could use instead.
This was the reply...
Hi K,
Thanks for your email.
The Scout Association is a faith based organisation that asks all of its members to make a Promise which includes, as you mention, stating a 'duty to God.' Although this does not necessarily have to be a Christian, or other major faith, God, it does suppose a belief in a higher being. This belief is very much down to personal understanding.
Therefore, we do not have a version of the promise that does not include God, such as for Atheists. This shared belief is one of the things that brings Scouts together across the world, and it forms a fundamental part of our programme of activities.
Please do give me a call if you have any further questions.
(I have removed the name of the diversity officer responsible for this email though you could contact their office on diversity.inclusion@scouts.org.uk )
Oh yes I had some questions so I called.
The call was largely pointless. and can be summarised as
Q. Why do you ban Atheists?
A. We don't, we just require everyone to believe in a higher spiritual power (presumably the inclusive term for all possible religions)
Q. But what bit of canoeing, camping and singalongs requires you to believe in god?
A. We are a faith based organisation so can do what we like?
Q. No you can't
A. Yes we can
Q Why?
A We are a faith based organisation and require everyone to believe in a higher spiritual power
Loop endlessly - you can tell when the person on the other end of the phone can't really explain when they loop around the same arguments without actually answering the questions.
So following this I had a chat to the equality commission and they felt that The Scouts couldn't actually do this. Their argument as basically - it would be illegal to say "no jews allowed" so "no atheists allowed" is equally illegal. Hence my next email...
From: karl
Sent: 03 April 2012 17:52
To: Diversity Inclusion
Subject: Re: Membership query
Dear C,
I am disappointed by your response to this important issue. Under the equality act 2010 it is illegal to discriminate against any person based on their faith or belief system and atheism is explicitly included within the act. As your association is not affiliated to any specific religion it would therefore seem that to deny access to a member of the public based solely on their religious beliefs is counter to the 2010 equality act.
I have spoken to the equality commission and they share this view.
I would welcome your response.
This was the response
Dear Karl,
I'm sorry that you are disappointed by the response. In terms of the law, The Scout Association complies with all UK Equality legislation, including the Equality Act. As a membership organisation, rather than simply a programme of activities, it is permitted for us to put a requirement of this shared belief in for being a member and we thus are exempt.
I do wish to reassure you that there are other organisations, which we work closely with, who run similar activities without this requirement, such as The Woodcraft Folk, which may be better suited to your needs.
Kind regards,
Well the woodcraft folk don't suit us and the equality act equally states that you can't refuse membership based on religion so hence my next email...
I have a number of questions for you.
1) My understanding is that these exemptions are intended to apply to organisations which support a particular religion or belief. The examples given in accompanying notes refer to clubs set up to support jewish war veterans etc. As the scout association permits members from a full range of religions and allows members to opt out of services etc that are not in accordance with their own religion I cannot see how these exemptions allow the scouts to be selective in their implementation.
Either the scouts are a christian organisation with the aim of supporting and furthering christian understanding and so restrict membership to those of a specific religion or they are accepting of the full range of religious beliefs and views and tolerate a full range of religious believers. It seems "unchristian" and potentially unlawful to cherry pick which belief systems are permitted.
2) Would Pagans and Scientologists be permitted to join the scouts? Both of these groups are acknowledged to be religions within the UK.
3) Why are the scouts excluding Atheists as a single group. Atheists follow, in general, a moral code in line with every other member of the UK and so to exclude them seems perverse and intolerant.
I am intending to raise this matter further with the charity commission to seek clarification on your association's understanding of these exemptions.
I look forward to your answers to the above questions.
Kind regards,
To which I got this response
Karl,
I believe that we have already covered many of the points you have raised, through previous emails and our phone conversation and, therefore, it is of no benefit to go over them once again. We are within UK legislation and this policy is a fundamental aspect of Scouting.
Obviously, you are free to liaise with the Charity Commission, if desired.
Kind regards,
Basically "sod off you annoying atheist"
I have now raised the issue with the Charity Commission who on the phone agree with my point of view that to say "no atheists" is equal to and equally illegal as "no jews" or "no muslims" they are considering my written complaint about this breach of Charity Law.
In summary The Scouts don't want their members mixing with Atheists and are misrepresenting the exemptions of the equality act 2010 to their own narrow minded and discriminatory ends.
However this bizarre state of affairs is alive and well within one of the longest standing and richest charities in the UK - The Scouts Association.
Yes The Scouts - of camping canoeing, knot tying and singalong fame, actively and proudly ban any atheist from joining and claim an exemption from the equality act exists to allow them to single out atheists as the only group barred from joining.
You wouldn't imagine this could happen. After all the current (as of April 2012) home page of their website proudly shows off the new muslim friendly uniform to allow girls to join and they have a wide variety of oaths designed to cover virtually any religion you can name but no secular one. And it was this lack that prompted me to contact them.
Our daughter is now old enough to join the scouts and we felt it might be an interesting activity for her - something to bring out the adventurous side and widen her horizons. She has a wide circle of friends and, as is typical in this tolerant and diverse country we live in, they are of many faiths. At the last count we can include a couple of devout catholics, three jews, some creationist christians, four muslims (some from mixed faith households) and any number for whom the question of religion has never arisen. All these children get along great with only a couple of dinosaur toys causing a little consternation at one point!
Based on our wonderful diversity I didn't think there would be any problem with the scouts so dropped them a little email asking if there was a secular version of the oath which my daughter could use instead.
This was the reply...
Hi K,
Thanks for your email.
The Scout Association is a faith based organisation that asks all of its members to make a Promise which includes, as you mention, stating a 'duty to God.' Although this does not necessarily have to be a Christian, or other major faith, God, it does suppose a belief in a higher being. This belief is very much down to personal understanding.
Therefore, we do not have a version of the promise that does not include God, such as for Atheists. This shared belief is one of the things that brings Scouts together across the world, and it forms a fundamental part of our programme of activities.
Please do give me a call if you have any further questions.
(I have removed the name of the diversity officer responsible for this email though you could contact their office on diversity.inclusion@scouts.org.uk )
Oh yes I had some questions so I called.
The call was largely pointless. and can be summarised as
Q. Why do you ban Atheists?
A. We don't, we just require everyone to believe in a higher spiritual power (presumably the inclusive term for all possible religions)
Q. But what bit of canoeing, camping and singalongs requires you to believe in god?
A. We are a faith based organisation so can do what we like?
Q. No you can't
A. Yes we can
Q Why?
A We are a faith based organisation and require everyone to believe in a higher spiritual power
Loop endlessly - you can tell when the person on the other end of the phone can't really explain when they loop around the same arguments without actually answering the questions.
So following this I had a chat to the equality commission and they felt that The Scouts couldn't actually do this. Their argument as basically - it would be illegal to say "no jews allowed" so "no atheists allowed" is equally illegal. Hence my next email...
From: karl
Sent: 03 April 2012 17:52
To: Diversity Inclusion
Subject: Re: Membership query
Dear C,
I am disappointed by your response to this important issue. Under the equality act 2010 it is illegal to discriminate against any person based on their faith or belief system and atheism is explicitly included within the act. As your association is not affiliated to any specific religion it would therefore seem that to deny access to a member of the public based solely on their religious beliefs is counter to the 2010 equality act.
I have spoken to the equality commission and they share this view.
I would welcome your response.
This was the response
Dear Karl,
I'm sorry that you are disappointed by the response. In terms of the law, The Scout Association complies with all UK Equality legislation, including the Equality Act. As a membership organisation, rather than simply a programme of activities, it is permitted for us to put a requirement of this shared belief in for being a member and we thus are exempt.
I do wish to reassure you that there are other organisations, which we work closely with, who run similar activities without this requirement, such as The Woodcraft Folk, which may be better suited to your needs.
Kind regards,
Well the woodcraft folk don't suit us and the equality act equally states that you can't refuse membership based on religion so hence my next email...
I have a number of questions for you.
1) My understanding is that these exemptions are intended to apply to organisations which support a particular religion or belief. The examples given in accompanying notes refer to clubs set up to support jewish war veterans etc. As the scout association permits members from a full range of religions and allows members to opt out of services etc that are not in accordance with their own religion I cannot see how these exemptions allow the scouts to be selective in their implementation.
Either the scouts are a christian organisation with the aim of supporting and furthering christian understanding and so restrict membership to those of a specific religion or they are accepting of the full range of religious beliefs and views and tolerate a full range of religious believers. It seems "unchristian" and potentially unlawful to cherry pick which belief systems are permitted.
2) Would Pagans and Scientologists be permitted to join the scouts? Both of these groups are acknowledged to be religions within the UK.
3) Why are the scouts excluding Atheists as a single group. Atheists follow, in general, a moral code in line with every other member of the UK and so to exclude them seems perverse and intolerant.
I am intending to raise this matter further with the charity commission to seek clarification on your association's understanding of these exemptions.
I look forward to your answers to the above questions.
Kind regards,
To which I got this response
Karl,
I believe that we have already covered many of the points you have raised, through previous emails and our phone conversation and, therefore, it is of no benefit to go over them once again. We are within UK legislation and this policy is a fundamental aspect of Scouting.
Obviously, you are free to liaise with the Charity Commission, if desired.
Kind regards,
Basically "sod off you annoying atheist"
I have now raised the issue with the Charity Commission who on the phone agree with my point of view that to say "no atheists" is equal to and equally illegal as "no jews" or "no muslims" they are considering my written complaint about this breach of Charity Law.
In summary The Scouts don't want their members mixing with Atheists and are misrepresenting the exemptions of the equality act 2010 to their own narrow minded and discriminatory ends.
